Transcription: Professor Robert Pape from the University of Chicago in

The following is the transcription of an interview with the professor of the University of Chicago Robert Pape that was issued in “Fac The Nation with Margaret Brennan” on September 14, 2025.

Major Garrett: Welcome again. We will analyze more closely the problem of political violence in the United States. And we join now, I’m glad to say, by the professor at the University of Chicago, Robert Pape. He is the founding director of the Chicago project on security and threats. Professor, it’s great to have you. Thanks for accompanying us. What are the lines of trend and what is the key terminology you want my audience to understand?

Professor Robert Pape: Now we are in a decisive moment for what I call the era of violent populism in the United States. This era is defined, first of all, by two factors: number one, a growing wave of political violence both in the right and on the left. And just think, and I want to return to 2002 just think about the attack: the attempted murder against Nancy Pelosi, democratic leader of the camera, missed her, almost killed her husband. The attempt of Brett Kavanaugh, conservative justice of the Supreme Court. Two attempts against Republican candidate Donald Trump, and then in Minnesota only a few months ago, not only attempts, but real murders of democratic leaders. Josh Shapiro, governor of Pennsylvania. And now, we see Charlie Kirk murdered. And what we are seeing is this clear growing trend in a number of attacks, from side to that, however, we are also seeing an ascending tide, an land supporting political violence both in the right and on the left that corresponds to this growing trend of political violence both to the right and to the left. Our center in the security and threat project of the University of Chicago, we have been conducting highly reliable national surveys on political violence: support for political violence among Americans for more than four years. We began this in the summer of 2021. Our most recent survey in the survey in May found higher levels of support for political violence both in the right and on the left of what we have seen, and that is one of the reasons why I called the alarm bell with that great opinion article in the New York Times in June saying that we are at the cusp of important political violence, and I regret to say that we are now in great populism.

Major Garrett: And in the survey data, is it that people who respond to their survey say they reconcile with the political result I want, I will be willing to resort to violence? Is that the key connection point?

Pape: The key connection is the particular political complaint. Then we ask him, we only give an example, 39% of the Democrats say they agree that the use of force is justified to eliminate Donald Trump from the presidency. When we deepen to probe, what do they mean with the use of force? 55% are talking about murders. They are talking about lethal uses of force. That’s why we use that term. On the right, we also ask for that same survey. We discover that 24% of Republicans agree that Donald Trump is justified in the use of the United States Army to suppress democratic protesters. So these are very specific questions. We have a lot of these questions so that we can really talk with great precision about which complaints that people mean that the use of force is justified. We know what is the meaning of that term, and then we can see the democrats-republican in cross tampas.

Major Garrett: Does your research reinforce the point made by Senator Lankford as Senator Coons, which is the Internet, is accelerating and an amplifier?

Pape: It is accelerating, but it is not the root cause. So, studying this problem now for five years, I discovered that, as in the world, a great social change, it promotes political violence. We see this in other countries of the world and, but the details of the change vary. Now we are moving for the first time in the 250 years of history of our country, from a white majority democracy to a white minority democracy. In 1990, we were 76% of non -Hispanic white. Today, we are 57% of Non -Hispanic. It will be another 10 years, perhaps 15 if we deport many of those undocumented illegal immigrants, before making the transition to a truly white democracy. Well, this generational change has happened. It started about 10 years ago, with the generation of real turning points and corresponds to the emergence of Donald Trump, why his immigration problem is meteoric, why he transforms immigration, which means that people who cross the border towards the number of masses of people, because there are people who want to stop this or reverse this this. This is really the grain, and that is why we must wait: this will leave your own devices worsen and will be with us for 10 years.

Major Garrett: So, this is a demographic story that is creating a political reaction that is amplified and accelerated online. Do I have that well?

Pape: You have it exactly well. And this is why it is not the Internet is not important. It is a reinforcement factor. And there is –

Major Garrett: In other words, is it too simplistic to say that it is the Internet?

Pape: exactly. Because it’s why, a few years ago, people challenged my findings and said: Oh no, no, we will simply deplic people. So, the problem here is only the Internet, so we are going to deposit X, and Y Z. we deplatform x, y y z, and do you know what? A rhythm was not lost. And the reason is because, yes, it is an additional, it is like throwing gasoline on the fire, but the Internet is not the fire itself. There is something that is happening, that really radicalizes our policy. And I’m sorry to say that this is a story that we have seen worldwide, in other countries, other times. And so, this is the social change that leads to a radicalized policy that changes to the winners and losers in our real society, and that is leading to political violence.

Major Garrett: Professor, it has always been a distinctive seal of this country, we have thought of ourselves such as having this experiment that has many differences of opinion, spasms of violence, but in the end, we reconcile and move forward. Are you more or less optimistic about that and that underlying assumption about the central capacity of the United States than previously?

Pape: The future is in our hands. This is not blocked with fate. That said, if we do nothing, this will continue to get worse. The number one we have to do is that we need our political leaders to take a step forward. And we have just seen an instance of that, just before, where we have senators from both sides of the hall making an appearance in a set video. Well, that’s really enough, condemn violence. That is important, because leaders can contain their own components. When they go wrong from the components on the other side, our data shows that they get worse. That is the worst of all possible worlds, because it produces challenge. We need to advance. What would that increase? A summit between President Trump, Governor Newsom and Governor Pritzker, a public session where, together, they condemn political violence.

Major Garrett: Professor Pape, I am very happy that you are here. Modeling behavior is important in many contexts, in life, politics and other. Thank you so much. We will return in a moment.