Transcription: French president Emmanuel Macron in

The following is the complete transcription of an interview with the French president Emmanuel Macron, a part of which was issued in “Fac The Nation with Margaret Brennan” on September 21, 2025.

The interview was recorded on Thursday, September 18 at the Elysée Palace in Paris. See previous clips here and here.

Margaret Brennan: Well, Mr. President, if you are ready, we will immerse ourselves directly.

President Emmanuel Macron: Thank you.

Margaret Brennan: Thank you for having us here. You know, most countries in the world recognize Palestinian status. There are 147 of 193 countries at the UN, but France will be the first member of the Western UN Security Council to do so. What conditions are there for this?

President Macron: Look, thanks, and thanks for being here and offering me the opportunity to have that discussion. I think it was a necessity first to decide this recognition, and I will announce it on September 22 of the United Nations, precisely because we are at the same time that if we want peace and security for all in the region, we have to preserve the condition of a political perspective for all. Then we will announce recognition, but which is the beginning of a political process and a peace and security plan for all. So, just after this, this recognition, we have a first phase, which is, I would say, the emergency phase, the high fire, the release of all hostages … and third, restoring humanitarian roads and the stabilization of Gaza. We have a second package, which is the day after we will revert on how to organize Gaza in terms of governance, security and reconstruction. And the third package, the perspective of the two states. But recognizing the Palestinian state today is the only way to provide a political solution to a situation that has to stop.

Margaret Brennan: But you are not making the launch of the hostages a condition before recognition,

President Macron: Therefore, this is a clear condition before opening an embassy. This is the first series of conditions and requirements that we will promote, we will put in the peace process. But we will announce the 22 of this recognition of the Palestinian State.

Margaret Brennan: then, the Secretary of State, Marco Rubio, said that this is an “reckless decision.” That is the word he used. He said he gives Hamas few incentives to begin diplomacy to free hostages. Why don’t you agree with that sequence?

President Macron: Then my first point is to say that I do not respond to the Hamas with that. I don’t find Hamas’ expectations. Hamas is obsessed with destroying Israel, but I recognize the legitimacy of so many Palestinian peoples who want a state, which is a people. They want a nation, they want a state and we should not push them towards Hamas. If we do not offer them a political perspective and such recognition, the unique response will be security, and will be completely trapped by Hamas as a unique option. My second point is, thanks to this recognition, and thanks to the diplomatic movement that we launched, we began to isolate Hamas because in the New York statement, which was voted, as they know, by 142 countries. We gather all the states of the Arab League, all the leaders of the regions, to work closely with us to dismantle and disassemble Hamas precisely. Until now, they were not committed to such movement. Now we gather all these states, all these people to work closely with us in this movement. So I think this is the reason why we can create the condition of a concrete action, first, to give this right to the Palestinian people, second, to isolate Hamas from the rest of the Palestinians and the entire region, and build precisely security. But let me tell you something that, for me, is very important in this context, Israel had wonderful security results against the main leaders of Hezbolá Hamas, and managed to neutralize many of the main decision makers of terrorist groups. They did. This is its merit. But in terms of fighting Hamas, this is today a failure. They started

Margaret Brennan: What is a failure?

President Macron:- Because, they killed all key leaders, this is a success. But at the beginning of this war, you had about 25,000 Hamas fighters. The Israeli army probably killed half of them, but Hamas managed to recruit the equivalent. You have so many combatants at the beginning, which is the best evidence of the fact, if we want to dismantle Hamas, the total war is not the answer, because it is only killing the credibility of Israel and, by the way, weakening and killing our own credibility if we do not make a movement like the one we are organizing.

Margaret Brennan: But you just pointed out something that Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu would say, well, that is why we must continue until we get rid of each Hamas member. You are saying that you can’t kill that idea, do you need to provide a different idea?

President Macron: Exactly. But this is so, this is the whole perspective. And look at the situation, not only for the war in Gaza, but in all parts of the region. Hamas was clearly not supported by many people before the seventh of October. If you took the surveys in Gaza, but in all countries in the region, they were very low in all surveys. Today, the level of support is much greater, because they are making the error, in fact, to reduce the entire perspective of the Palestinians to the Hamas. What we have to say is that we want the dismantling of Hamas. You had this success, there are no more main leaders. We want to isolate them. We want everyone to work with us to dismantle the Hamas. But recognizing this right to have a Palestinian state through a diplomatic channel, this only gives another channel and offers a political form and isolating Hamas. So, I think there is no future with the option, which would be fair, we kill the maximum number of Hamas people, because they simply recruit others and others. Because every time they launch this type of operation, they kill so many civilians who are only destroying their own reputation and credibility, and are creating an unsustainable security framework throughout the region.

Margaret Brennan: But, since October 7, popular support in Israel for a Palestinian state has also decreased. Prime Minister Netanyahu has opposed for a long time, and now he says he only looks at those attacks that day. If you allow any type of Palestinian state, it will be a launch door for terrorism. I mean, that is his argument, that this shows that he cannot allow the security of Israel if there are two states. Why is it wrong?

President Macron: First, I mean. I mean that the seventh of October was a total trauma for everyone in our country here, because we had so many French killed during the terrorist attack of the seventh of October launched by Hamas. Y- And it was, for us, one of the greatest terrorist attacks against our own fellow citizen. But we share, and share the pain and suffering of Israeli people and many families. And for me, the main priority remains the release of hostages. And I met hostage families very regularly, and I have to say that what they live is unbearable. And I had the opportunity to meet with Guy’s mother (unintel) and many of them, and what they describe is absolutely unbearable. But, I consider that if we want to build precisely a sustainable peace for Israel himself and for the Israeli people, a political process and the recognition of a Palestinian State, if the State recognizes the right of Israel to live and defend itself, it is demilitarized, it has the security forces with the Israel research process, with, obviously, an adequate governance and reform and it is precisely a series of the series of the series.

Margaret Brennan: But that’s all, right? You are talking about recognizing the Palestinian authority, which has government swans in the West Bank, I was already working with Israeli security forces. But Hamas came to power through the polls first.

President Macron: Look, it is: if we are honest, it is totally different. And that’s why I think: let’s accept the fact that many people worked very hard to kill the credibility of the Palestinian authority in Gaza years ago, and Hamas seemed as precisely as an alternative option. But, Hamas launched terrorist attacks, not by the Palestinian authority. And if we say that all those who live in Gaza, and all who support the Palestinian State are the support of Hamas, there is no end for this war, except that you kill everyone. And this is terrible. Then we have to admit that the Palestinian authority must be renovated. Governance is not satisfactory today. We need a new, you have a new one, we need a new Palestinian authority. But, let’s comment alone and, please, let’s notice with me, that thanks to the recognition process we launched, for the first time for many years, we obtained, the ninth of June, a series of clear commitments of the Palestinian authority. They refused so far. The reform; A new chosen vice president, reform of the education program, a payment program, obviously, also with the monitoring of an audit structure of the United States. So not just theories

Margaret Brennan: and denounced on October 7

President Macron: -and for the first time –

Margaret Brennan: –20 months later.

President Macron: This is true. But for what? Because we did this movement. So, recognition is also the way to participate again and bring them back to the table. And my point that is, isolate Hamas, and let’s focus on Hamas dismantling from a military and political point of view. To do so, we have to commit to those who can be, I would say, a political achievement for the Palestinian people. And that is why recognition is so important. And if we return to the West Bank, one of the key elements that my decision triggered in July, the perspective of recognition for September 22 is a Knéset vote. When the Knése decided to start the settlements again in the West Bank, it was the best evidence of the fact that they do not want to fight Hamas. There are no Hamas in the West Bank. They just want to destroy existing political bodies and the possibility of the two states. And I really believe that this is a terrible mistake for Israel, because in doing so, they simply kill any other perspective of that war.

Margaret Brennan: But when I understand the argument he is doing, but he has put it in direct probabilities with the Trump administration, who argue that his decision to make this announcement of recognition, along with all these UN members, which, in fact, kills the diplomacy they had underway. They said they were working to obtain, for example, the money of the taxes of the Israelis to return to the Palestinian authority, who were doing practical things in the field to help the Palestinians. Secretary Rubio said that the West Bank division of which he was talking to the agreements, made a direct line to his recognition. Why do you think they are blaming you for that?

President Macron: Look, first, I think we all work very hard to improve the situation of people in the field. And let me tell you that France, many French, French doctors, French citizens, French members of NGOs, also work very hard with our administration to help the Palestinians. And in recent years, we work very (unintel) and fund many actions well directed by UNRWA. Secondly, I think my goal is precisely to provide another perspective. We- We- we are closely coordinated with the US administration when we talk about the high fire and the release of hostages. Always We were in close coordination with the advisors of the Secretary of State, or key to President Trump, to work with Qatar, Egypt and Israel in the release of hostages, highly fire. But your administration is focusing on the next day. And what we propose is a complete plan, where we have first, the emergency package. Then, we give all the hostages, the high fire and humanitarian and humanitarian access. The day we have that, we started the next day. And I think we are very convergent with the work that is being done by its administration. What we want is de facto governance in Gaza, with clearly a kind of transition transition administration, including the Palestinian authority, clearly excluding Hamas. But with an Israel investigation process and an association of all neighbors, we have a security package on this day, on this day after the approach, that we expand the training of the police and the security forces of the Palestinians, and …

Margaret Brennan: Who will do that?

President Macron: We are doing that, we are doing it. Many countries in the regions. It exists, but we need a scale, and in parallel, we proposed, and we worked very closely with the United Kingdom, and all the leaders of the region, precisely to offer an army, would say that an international force to deploy in Gaza, with a UN mandate. That it is a unique framework to be defended, and that could be legitimate, to help and back, I would say, this police and security forces. AND–

Margaret Brennan: But you know, Israel does not trust the United Nations at all.

President Macron: No, this is a UN framework, but this, first, would have a research process of the entire structure, and involve Jordan, Egypt and some others are ready to finance. But obviously it must be done in close coordination with Israel. And in the security package, obviously, the central element is a dismantling of Hamas. There is no other option if you want to fix the situation, disarm the Hamas and precisely, to demobilize so many combatants, organize what we call a DDR process, which is very familiar to all experts in this type of situation. And this is on this day later for Gaza, in the security package, that we can organize such DDR, Vis a Vis Hamas. And to ensure that Hamas will never participate in the government, but that Hamas will be unarmed, dismantled, with some key people to leave Gaza and some others to be derailized, and the weapons that will be taken. To do so, you need clear security forces here. You need these international forces to be here. And obviously we have the reconstruction. About that, I think there is a strong alignment with the United States. My point is that the recognition and process we launched is the only way to bring with us, on this track, all neighbors and key countries to deliver this package. Y- And look at the situation today, when Egypt, when so many leaders in the region, do not feel comfortable with what is being done. You need to participate again. And this is exactly what we are doing. But my point is to say that if we do not have this complete package, the next day is impossible, because today, de facto, it is accepting the displacement of the population in the city of Gaza. How do you want it to be possible the next day if you move to thousands of people?

Margaret Brennan: Well, exactly at this point, when you say, day later, that means when the war ends and some type of reconstruction occurs. What you are talking about with the Trump administration is this idea that the Palestinians leave Gaza, by choice, they say. But some would say that it is a step towards ethnic cleaning. In fact, an independent commission established by the UN concluded that Israel has an appointment, “intention to destroy the Palestinians in Gaza, as defined by the Genocide Convention.” Is France according to that report?

President Macron: No, we do not qualify as genocide what is happening because it is not a political statement. These are the judges or the historians to qualify a genocide for a series of evidence and a clear jurisprudence and clear elements.

Margaret Brennan: So you reject that report and that finding?

And this is where I try to convince your administration that if we agree on the next day and we want this de facto authority, the security package, the dismantling of Hamas and the reconstruction, let’s work on the current day.

Margaret Brennan: Correct.

President Macron: If you accept Israel de facto to displace these people, you will never see a day later. And by the way, I see with great care all the plans that share their administration or share experts who work for administration. We always reiterate, work and build gaza for the Gazans. It means that they are ready to preserve and protect the Palestinian peoples because Gazanes are those who live in Gaza. But if the previous condition of this plan is to expel them, this is just crazy. So, we should not be, for the credibility of the United States, due to the credibility of France, we cannot be complacently or explicitly complacent with said project. Because such a project, we know. And, by the way, all security experts, even in Israel, are very clear about the fact that it will be a humanitarian disaster. And this project will kill the possibility of a day later. Therefore, we have to be very explicit about the fact that attacking civilians only to obtain some, some terrorists and some combatants is clearly not acceptable. But displacing people to take a territory, which is not in the hands of Israel, to prepare the next day, is not only totally crazy, but unacceptable for all of us.

Margaret Brennan: Then, France has one of the largest Muslim and Jewish populations,

President Macron: – This is true. –

Margaret Brennan: – throughout Europe. The United States ambassador to France, Charles Kushner, the father of the son -in -law of the president of the United States, Jared’s father, published an article, and I know you have read it, saying that France is not dealing with anti -Semitism here in France. He said that “it does not spend a day without Jews attacked in the street, the synagogues or the disfigured schools, or the Jewish property companies destroyed. Their own interior ministry has reported anti -Semitic incidents even in preschool.” Do you accept this criticism as genuine and valid?

President Macron: Not at all. I think this is a mistake and an unacceptable statement for someone who is supposed to be a diplomat.

Margaret Brennan: unacceptable statement.

President Macron: Yes, a French ambassador will never be allowed to do so. So, or you are a person who wants to express freely. Good. If you are a diplomat, you must follow the rule of diplomacy. And I am not the one, this is to pay the United States ambassador to France, but the taxpayer’s money is not used properly to finance this type of declaration. So this is not a speech, a letter or a word of an ambassador. This is unacceptable. Now, the matter is much more important. And the issue of anti -Semitism is, for me, one of my highest priority. I was the first president in France to adopt the definition of anti -Semitism, which makes it the equivalent of anti -rings. And I have always been very committed, again, anti -Semitism. We have worked very hard in recent years to re -involve precisely, have faster penalties and never neglected this issue.

Margaret Brennan: You know that in the United States people sometimes listen to criticism from Israel as anti -Semites. –

President Macron: No. –

Margaret Brennan: But you are saying that it is different. –

President Macron: -No. My point is to say that you can, you cannot reject the existence of Israel. Ani, anti -sectionism is unacceptable and is anti -Semitism. But it does not mean that you are not allowed to disagree with the Israel government. Otherwise, we will go crazy. I’m sorry, but I want to fight very hard against anti -Semitism. I am very much against any anti -sectionist discourse, but I am sure to disagree with Prime Minister Netanyahu and some of his ministers on many issues. It does not become an anti -Semitic. Otherwise, we are completely trapped in an impossible world. And this is precisely why the public debate makes this situation completely crazy. If we want peace, stability and unity, we have to be precise, acute and respectful. So, in this country, for many years, we had this problem with anti -Semitism as in many other countries. What I do not agree with is in the argument made by its ambassador and the prime minister of Israel, in another public letter, making a link between recognition and anti -Semitism. You have, you have a wave of anti -Semitism in the United States and you don’t recognize. You have a wave of anti -Semitism in Germany. Nothing to do with recognition. Everywhere we have such wave of anti -Semitism. It started before the seventh of October. Many of these types expressed their anti -Semitism the seventh of October. How, so horrible it could be, but they did and increased later. We have to fight this phenomenon. We have to read, first, we have to punish. We have just approved a law for our secondary schools and universities to improve regulations and be in a situation to sanction all the anti -Semitism that is expressed there. Then we are very hard. We work very hard with the Jewish community in our country. And, and the Jews are part of the DNA of the French Republic. So there is no possibility that no one here abandons the situation.

Margaret Brennan: has this harmed its relationship with the United States?

President Macron: No, I don’t think so.

Margaret Brennan: Because you have some other friction points at this time, or different points of view than the Trump administration.

President Macron: My goal to this, on this issue, is very clearly that it is involved depending on the plan with which we will put on the table, with the administration of the United States. And there is a job, an important job, which is done by Mr. Witkoff, the Rubio Secretary, but also Jared Kushner and Tony Blair. So we had many exchanges with, with these people and and work very hard, about, in important ideas. So, my goal is to interact with this administration, and demonstrate that we can clearly articulate what they have in mind and a peace plan and complete security for all.

Margaret Brennan: I want to ask what is happening here in Europe. Regarding Russia, NATO airplanes were scrambled twice in recent weeks due to these Russian drones that have crossed Poland and Romania. It is the first time in the history of NATO who had to tear down the enemy crafts that had crossed, do you think these incursions could have been a mistake, as President Trump suggested?

President Macron: Very clearly, Russia is a destabilizing and aggressive power in Europe. The attacks against kyiv and killing many civilians increased, during the last weeks. They destroyed the official buildings of the Ukrainian government, but also the facilities of the United Kingdom government, of the European Union. And at the same time, during the same week, they violated the Polish and Romanian air. There is no error. There is only one project that is to destroy the maximum territories of Ukraine, have a victory in Ukraine and only highlight what they want, the weakness of NATO.

Margaret Brennan: NATO says they are still investigating. They are not as safe as you seem to be …

President Macron: -No. I’m not saying …

Margaret Brennan: -What Russia did this intentionally.

President Macron: I just say that this is not totally me, this is not a specific point. If we had a situation in which the attacks against kyiv and on the battlefield were decreasing or decreasing. I could accept this argument. My point is to say that it is largely beyond that. My point is D Ecir, look what they did during the last weeks. Therefore, I sincerely believe that its president was committed and is committed to making peace in Ukraine, and he promised, risked to make a summit with President Putin in Anchorage and asked for negotiations. And I think he is right. But at the same time, I have to recognize that there is no clear will of President Putin to participate sincerely in such movement, because as we were working diplomatly, since we were trying to organize bilateral, trilateral, quadrilaterals, the Russians increased the aggressions on the side of the aggressions, but not only in the provocations intensified in the summit and those attacked in the top of the attacks. So I only look at the facts, and its president is also looking at the facts. So what do we do? We have to increase the sanctions against Russia, but we have to find a way to exert more pressure on Russia to bring them back to the table. At the same time, let me insist on one point. When we arrive at Washington DC, a series of European leaders with President Zelenskyy, we commit ourselves, we will work to provide Ukraine guarantees of security, and we delivered. A few days ago here in Paris, we gathered what we call the Willing coalition. He has 30 countries working together to provide the day after peace guarantees to Ukraine. So we have all these elements now with a historical commitment of Europeans who provide security guarantees to Ukraine. What we need now is Ukraine to be on the table with Russia and negotiate what the Peace Agreement, in territory, security guarantee, climbing, recovery, etc.

Margaret Brennan: And you see no evident evidence of Russian interest. I mean it has been more than

President Macron: -So we now have to intensify, and we need a political, military and economic wave to bring them back to the table and negotiate them.

Margaret Brennan: then, to that point, because now it is more than a month since that Alaska Summit, that great risk that said President Trump took. When asked, then, why not put sanctions or secondary tariffs in Russia, points here in Europe and the consumption of Russian oil and gas that still takes place? I know that Hungary and Slovakia, for example, continue to use it.

President Macron: This is true, and we are fixing it. And we had an argument with Ursula von der Leyen, and did a great job with their teams to fix that. But let’s be honest, this is very marginal. This is not a key controller today. We decrease by more than 80% the consumption of oil and gas. And I can tell you, because we were not the most affected as a country, because we depended less on this oil: oil and gas from Russia. But we have to finish, to finish the job. This is true, but now it is clearly much more than when we must do, what we have to do. We: we have to intensify our support to Ukraine, and we have to provide the way to better resist the new attacks against kyiv and civilians.

Margaret Brennan: What is the delay in sanctions or rates then?

President Macron: As soon as possible. If it depends on me, tomorrow. But not only depends on me. So I hope, I think we have to react collectively if you want my strong vision, I think it is very important. I think we all agree that we want peace. We all agree that the problem is Russia because they don’t want peace. So now we have to increase the pressure to convince Russia to return to the table.

Margaret Brennan: As the Trump administration has indicated the idea that there are billions of dollars in European bank accounts that could be seized, for example. Or that, you know, here you could put more tariffs on China or sanctions to China. Are these valid arguments of the administration, or are these?

President Macron: Ploque, with respect to frozen assets to which we are all very attached to comply with international rules. And cannot confiscate these assets of the Central Bank even in such a situation. And I think it is a matter of credibility, and it is very important that our countries remain [inaudible] and respect international laws. Because this is our problem everywhere. If we talk about the Middle East, if we talk about the situation in Ukraine, when some countries begin to disrespect international laws and when we are not strong enough, this is the beginning of total chaos. Then we will respect international law. We are predictable, and we will not do all impossible things with these frozen assets. We already take them as, not as a guarantee, but we take this frozen asset, and all the income from this frozen asset was used to finance our efforts, part of our effort for Ukraine. This is the first point. As for your second point, I felt it …

Margaret Brennan: -I asked about the appearance of China. That the administration would like to go back to China.

President Macron: Look, I think we will have our own diplomacy in China, and we are very attached to our independence, which is normal. And we have an elimination strategy, but we are not in a decoupling strategy.

Margaret Brennan: So that is a not about the administration pressure to do that?

President Macron: My point is to focus on some secondary sanctions, if they make sense. I think what we have, what we have to do is involve a serious dialogue to see where and in what Russia capacity is helped by third countries and increase pressure. So I think this approach is good, but it must be directed and directly related to Russia. And I think: what I do not think about what we, what we will do as Europeans with the administration of the United States, is working hard in full capacity, product by product, see the key countries that allow Russia, sometimes have a third way and avoid sanctions or benefit from the current situation. This is what we call secondary sanction, because Russia is not sanctioned directly, but a third country that is helping them, and this work must be done, has already begun technically. I am totally in favor of this work.

Margaret Brennan: And only one last question here to ask you again about NATO. The United States has not contributed the combat airplanes to that new effort that was announced recently after drone incursions. The Supreme Allied Commander is American, but does that indicate something? Are you worried that the United States is not more muscular here?

President Macron: No, I’m not worried or worried about that. I mean that NATO general secretary worked very hard, and we all gathered and exchanged information with the Polish Prime Minister and the Polish President in the hours just after this, what happened. And for example, the United Kingdom and France took a step forward and we sent fighters. But it’s fine. We were in a situation to do it, and we are totally credible. But at the same time, look what the United States is doing on the NATO eastern flank. You are a very strong taxpayer and a reliable partner. So I don’t want this role and its commitment to decrease and I think its president was also very clear about his commitment to NATO. But I am totally in line with the fact that Europeans have to intensify. I have defended for years the fact that we need more independence, more strategic autonomy in Europe, and we need a stronger European pillar. That is why, by the way, just after my first choice, I began to increase the budget of our army, and in 10 years, we will have doubled this budget. And … I am already in favor of all Europeans to increase their budget, their defense expenses and, in addition, build a real research and development of the industry for defense and security, working together and building a strong European pillar and consisting of NATO. Because it is fair that the United States wants to focus much more on their own security, or want to work much more on the Pacific side, and ask Europeans to be more committed and committed by their own security. I share this perspective, and this is one of the priorities of Europeans.

Margaret Brennan: Mr. President. Thanks for your time today.

President Macron: Thank you very much for being here and offering me this opportunity to explain our views. Thank you.

Margaret Brennan: Thank you.